Ricky Mason (00:00):

I feel like comfort is where dreams go to die. And I’m still dreaming every night. So I’ll wake up, chasing them.

Eric Cross (00:08):

Welcome to Science Connections. I’m your host, Eric Cross. My guest today is Ricky Mason. Ricky is an engineer whose career included lead roles at the Department of Defense, NASA, and the CIA. Ricky transitioned to education as an adjunct faculty at the University of Kentucky. And while there, he founded BrainSTEM, an edtech company that developed a 3D virtual reality metaverse for STEM education. Today, BrainSTEM serves public school districts, private schools, and nonprofits. And in this episode, we discuss what led Ricky to creating BrainSTEM Metaversity, and how he’s using the metaverse to transform STEM learning for students. And now please enjoy my conversation with Ricky Mason. How did you, so like maybe going back doing your origin story, maybe you can talk about it, but brother, you don’t sleep. Talk about keep making moves, your hashtag, I mean, I was looking at your LinkedIn profiles, looking at your details. You get after it. I was getting tired just reading it. I was like John Hopkins, electrical engineering, real estate, starting companies. You must have that gene where it’s like four hours of sleep and then you’re like, ready to go.

Ricky Mason (01:19):

Yeah, man. My mom told me if I didn’t stay busy, then I’m in trouble. So when I was about 14, she told me that. I said, well, Mama, I guess I’m gonna stay busy then. And yeah, man, that’s just been my life. I feel like if I don’t keep making moves, then I’m in trouble. So, feel like comfort is where dreams go to die and I’m still dreaming every night. So I’ll wake up chasing them.

Eric Cross (01:44):

I feel like a kindred spirit with you. So, were you always interested in STEM like, was there something like a moment or a year where you remember you were like, this is my jam. This is what I’m gonna get into.

Ricky Mason (01:57):

Yeah, man. When it really clicked for me was in the fifth grade. I was at a school assembly and an IBM engineer came in and he brought a robot and he programmed it with punch cards right on the stage. And I got the opportunity to come up andyou know, put one of the punch cards in the robot to program it. And I asked him, I’m like, what is your job? He said, I’m a robotics engineer. And I went home right after that assembly and I said, Mom, that’s what I wanna do, become a robotics engineer. And my mom would take me to the libraries. Well, I felt like I was getting outta bible study on Wednesdays by going to the library. So I went there and I started researching robots.

Ricky Mason (02:39):

And at the time the robots that were popular were all being sent to space. And it was the spiritless. It was being sent to Mars. And I said, Mom, well, I guess I gotta become an astronaut if I’m gonna be a robotics engineer. And that’s kind of what set me out on that dream. And my mom started trying to find outlets for me to get involved in STEM, but it was really tough to find those outlets, you know, especially in that fifth to eighth grade range here in Kentucky. So that was kind of where it started for me man, when I knew that yeah, engineering is what I wanna do.

Eric Cross (03:14):

What does an electrical engineer do? I imagine there’s different types of specialties, but like, was there something that you specialize in that you focused on or was it, is it just kind of like a generalist field?

Ricky Mason (03:23):

Yeah, so I would say, yeah, man, it’s a huge field. So you could be doing anything from, you know, power, like power coming into your house. So those large power systems all the way down to nanotechnology and microchips. I like to tell people I’m a real full stack engineer, so my wheelhouse is kind of from the PCD, the little green computer chips, all the way to the cloud. Over my career, I’ve had some pretty cool jobs. One of those things was I was a test engineer for the army. So I got to test weapons up at Aberdeen Proving Ground for the Army. So I got to drive those weapons and test them before they went to theater there. After that,I worked at United Launch Alliance down at Cape Canaveral where I launched five rockets.

Ricky Mason (04:07):

So I was a part of the electrical ground systems team there where we were responsible for all of the electrical systems on the rocket while it was on the pad. Somonitoring the temperature of the rocket, the fuel, the entire system for safety while it was on that pad. And then finally I worked at the CIA as a computer engineer building data centers and as a data center architect for some of our remote systems and virtualizing our systems. So kind of had a broad spectrum of things there. And then finally coming back to the University of Kentucky as a research engineer and faculty. I developed drone technology for monitoring crops. So flying drones over crops with LIDAR, just like self-driving cars with high-definition cameras to pull in data about those crops, to help farmers determine about pesticides fertilizers, and the overall health of their crops from a remote location.

Eric Cross (05:10):

It’s so neat to hear you talk about it and to see how this is all built up to what you do now with BrainSTEM. How would you explain what BrainSTEM is? I know that’s your, that’s kind of your baby right now and what you’ve been working on a few years.

Ricky Mason (05:23):

Yeah, man, we started BrainSTEM in 2019 officially, but I would say BrainSTEM has been almost 10 years in coming. While I was in undergrad, I played football at the University of Kentucky. But I got hurt going into my sophomore year and that kind of shattered my dreams of football. And that’s when I really got back into engineering. One of my professors asked me to come to a robotics competition and I saw these third graders and sixth graders programming robots. And I’m like, oh my God, they’re programming robots! And I had no idea how to code or what to do with these things. And where was this a when I was a kid? And so I immediately bought one of those robots and taught myself how to program it <laugh> and then we started a robotics team in Lexington,there at a church.

Ricky Mason (06:10):

And we got a sponsorship from Lexmark to start that team. And that was kind of my first leap into STEM and teaching STEM and creating programs for students in STEM. I did that in undergrad and like I said, fast forward 10 years later, I’m teaching at the University of Kentucky and we’re struggling to recruit STEM students. Why aren’t students going into STEM? I hear too many adults tell me, oh man, I wish I would’ve done engineering, or I started out in engineering, but I left engineering or I wish I could go back to school for engineering or learn to code. And I’m like, I asked them like, why didn’t you do this? What happened? And often it’s like, it was the math. It was, oh, I didn’t get into it until I was in college. And I’m like, well, that’s the key.

Ricky Mason (06:52):

I knew I wanted to do this in the fifth grade. And I started with a plan in the fifth grade to achieve these goals and dreams. And I started doing that research and realizing that the same problem existed that I had. There was no outlet for kids to get involved in STEM, and so many kids have an affinity for STEM an early age. So we started BrainSTEM to provide access to STEM education and exposure STEM careers, STEM professionals, and just to STEM fields as a whole, because too often kids may know about the term, engineer, or the term, scientists, but they don’t really know what those people do or have a strong connection with the field or have any hands-on projects that they kind of done around those things or met anyone like me.

Ricky Mason (07:42):

I didn’t meet an engineer until I was in college. So that has really been impactful for some of the students that we’ve been able to touch. I had a family reach out to me. They moved to Lexington from California and they were like, man, I really want my ninth-grade son to get involved in engineering. So we started a weekend program with that one student and it went amazing. Like we competed in science fairs, we applied for different college programs and things like that. So it became an entire like mentorship program. And I’m proud to say that a year ago, he actually graduated with his bachelor’s in electrical engineering from your side of town, UCSB. It was just awesome to actually see this come full circle. And that’s kind of one of the first things that we did before we actually formalized as BrainSTEM University.

Eric Cross (08:34):

What will be like your elevator pitch for a teacher? If you were gonna say, this is what BrainSTEM does. I have the luxury of going through it on the site, but since we’re on a podcast, how would you kind of pitch it to people letting them know, like what, what does it do? Who does it serve?

Ricky Mason (08:47):

Yeah. So BrainSTEM provides STEM curriculum and STEM magnets for schools and nonprofits looking to increase access to STEM for K through 12 students. We also have launched our BrainSTEM Metaversity, a metaverse product for teachers to take their 2D Google classroom and convert it into a 3D metaverse classroom where students can collaborate during a 3D class. So all of your students show up as their avatars that they can select from our inventory of 150 avatars, and enjoy class in a 3D gameified Minecraft like World.

Eric Cross (09:26):

So I made my avatar by the way. It’s kind of tight, I have to say, it’s kind of tight. Hey, I’m gonna share. So those of you in the podcasts I’ll share it so you can see it. You’re not gonna be able to see it right now, but since I have the man himself I gotta share it with him just so I can get a reaction. So can you see that?

Ricky Mason (09:43):

Yeah. <laugh> That’s so good.

Eric Cross (09:44):

I feel like I wanna look like him though. I want him in real life. Like I want be able to switch to looking like my avatar

Ricky Mason (09:52):

<Laugh>

Eric Cross (09:54):

That was the first thing that I jumped on, when I went on your site, was making the avatar and I had so much fun doing it. I actually took longer than I probably wanna admit cause I was like customizing everything

Ricky Mason (10:03):

Yeah, man. It’s so fun. And that’s exactly what, you know, when you can show up as the person you want, it changes your whole being. I’ve seen kids that are quiet in class. They show up as their avatar and they’re talkative, they’re asking questions, they’re moving around the room, interacting with other kids. I feel like it’s almost like a superpower just to put your avatar on.

Eric Cross (10:25):

So what is something that a teacher could have their students go and learn or do if they, if they signed up,

Ricky Mason (10:31):

Let’s kick it off. So how we started with the metaverses, was teaching coding. So our first class was Minecraft and Python coding in the metaverse. So students showed up in the metaverse with our virtual instructor, that instructor led a lecture in the metaverse and then those students could collaborate on their Python games. So, they created and built the game in Python. We shared those games in the metaverse and we have our leaderboards that are in the metaverse, as they’re completing these challenges, including these games, then sharing them back in the metaverse with other students and getting that feedback on their game. So we’ve seen huge excitement from students when I can come back in and see my friend’s work. Like too often, students don’t get to see their work and that’s motivation to do better when I’m like, Jim’s gonna see my work. It’s amazing to see that motivation when students are sharing their work with other kids and not just their parent or just them and the teacher or seeing their grades. It’s been really cool to see.

Eric Cross (11:33):

You have that genuine audience too. Like that real-time feedback. And then like an authentic audience for students that makes everything seem, it takes it up a notch.

Ricky Mason (11:42):

Yeah, man. And then as we have built on this platform, so like you said with that avatar, so think if you created a really cool looking avatar and other students wanted to be that avatar, we have a way of sharing that avatar back into the world and in the inventory so that other students could then be your avatar. Or, if you create a world, we could then share that world back into the inventory, so the teacher could have class in a world that you created.

Eric Cross (12:07):

They’re creating content, not just consuming it. They’re actually creating content that could be shared across like grade levels or students.

Ricky Mason (12:14):

Well, we’re gonna say right now it’s just within your classroom. Eventually yes, we want students to be able to share that across school districts. At least we think that data will be probably limited to those kinds of realms as far as schools go. But you’ll be able to share this across sixth grade. We’ll be able to see what everyone in the sixth grade is doing in their STEM class or their game development class or their history class, per se, even if they’re giving back a presentation or what we have here in JCPS is backpack skills of success, where students are presenting on things that they’re learning that relate back to core competencies that the district is focused on. And I think that sharing those in the metaverse and doing those in the 3D world will be an awesome experience for students.

Eric Cross (12:56):

Are you seeing anything else as far as those skills that we see that are needed in coding? Is there something that the VR adds that was distinct from maybe just a kid with a Chromebook in his class that it’s just him in isolation doing the coding? Was there any like aha moments or surprises when they’re in the VR world doing this?

Ricky Mason (13:13):

I think the biggest thing is we could actually show them real examples of code working in other ways. Sofor example, if we’re working through loops, we can show them something looping. We can relate these functions to real-world things happening in the VR world so that they can see and better relate the actual concept with visuals, if that makes sense. So, you’re in loop Allen the whole time you’re learning about loops. You’re immersed in that kind of world. What we’ve seen is students really start to, you know, they it pick up and it clicks a lot faster because some of these concepts are so abstract for students to understand, when we can relate them to things in that world that they see that are in front of them, that they can grasp before we go to okay, type in “while” “”parentheses” <laugh> they can thenrelate that and pick up on those clues a lot better after they’ve seen those things in the world.

Eric Cross (14:09):

So they can actually visualize it in the metaverse. Whereas outside of it, it’s more just, just text-based coding and they’re not isolated. Like the first thing I’m thinking about is how like, with my own students, when they’re learning Sratch or Python, it’s not easy to share back and forth because they all are on individual accounts and they’d have to go on a different computer, or we’d have to find some way to publish it. And then all the kids would have to access it. But it sounds like in the metaversity classrooms, it’s easy for students in that same class to see each other’s work. Am I getting that right?

Ricky Mason (14:37):

Yeah. So most of our classrooms are limited to 24 students and in some of our breakout classrooms, we limit them to about eight students. Everybody can share their screen, so students can share their screen in the metaverse. They can share their video in the metaverse. They can share documents in the metaverse. They can share their, like I said, their code or anything that they want to share with other students. They can kind of do that. So it’s been a really cool product, I think, for students to almost find independence to work within a group, in an online setting. As they’ve been working through these problems online and remote it’s been really cool to see how they use the metaverse and break out. Even in a class, they can go off into a section because it’s all spacial. If you walk away, I can’t hear your conversation. So they can go into a little section within a metaverse class and have their own breakout. And a teacher can walk over to them. Okay. You guys are working over here. Let me walk to my next group. Just like in class. So it’s been really cool to see those students use the metaverse like that.

Eric Cross (15:41):

Just listening to you talk about this. One of the exciting things about emerging technologies or taking what the private sector does, and someone with a mind like yourself, and go, how do I use this for education? Like, that’s something that like excites me and you’ve run with it. But I just thought about, you’re doing an hour of code, you’ve created this metaverse, and you can bring in somebody, a professional into the metaverse, but they’re in, you know, the Bay area, but they could be a software engineer for Tesla or Google or anybody. Could they move around the metaverse and take a look at different students’ work and interact in that way.

Ricky Mason (16:17):

Yeah, man, we get in there. We make metaverse selfies. I drop Lambos in the metaverse, we take picture with Lambos. We have scavenger hunts in the metaverse. It’s a really awesome experience. And that’s one of the big things I think that is so powerful, is like you said, we could have that engineer, that celebrity, we could have Travis Scott, you know, in the world meeting thousands of kids motivating them because they met their STEM goals. They met their, you know, their testing school goals or whatever. These are things that kids really care about. If I get the Travis Scott avatar or the Elon Musk avatar, because I completed the Elon Musk rocket challenge, like that’s huge for me to show up in class as that avatar, like it’s just like Fortnite and it’s bringing all of those mechanics into the classroom.

Eric Cross (17:07):

When I hear you talk about the metaverse and I hear you talk about the potential of where you want to go with it, I think about my own students, and I think about, how they would really have a genuine interest and desire to want to do this and probably be doing it when they don’t have to, like at home at night wanting to go back into it and interact. And, you’re also building this virtual community. I mean, are you seeing that like, cause I’m hearing that?

Ricky Mason (17:28):

Yeah, man, building that community is huge. And I often tell people all the time, I want the STEM community to be just like the basketball community, the football community. I want students to have that camaraderie built around them for learning STEM and participating in STEM activities and competitions. Because when you see students out there at a robotics, they have the same zeal, the same, you know, everything that you find at a football competition. So we just have to get behind them and back those events with the same enthusiasm that we back sports. And that’s the environment that I want to create for STEM students and for that STEM community, because I longed for that community when I was in school. And like I said, I had it in football, but I wanted both. I wanted the best of both worlds. I wanted my robotics guys and my football guys to show up together here at the competition and have a good time.

Eric Cross (18:23):

You’re absolutely right. Like robotics STEM, these things, community helps fuel like people’s interest and working together. And it brings people from the outside who are seeking that community. Like, hey, my friends are doing this, I wanna kind of check it out. That’s how we recruit a wider swath of our population into it. So it’s not this kind of very narrow channel of folks who are going into STEM.

Ricky Mason (18:45):

If you can’t find that community. I mean for me, I felt like I was the only one playing football who was interested in robotics. So I never told anybody because I didn’t feel like that related to anybody within my vicinity. So I kept that to myself and that’s the biggest thing. I think if we get these kids just talking more about their interests, because a lot of them are interested in robotics and space and these STEM topics, but they don’t have anyone that’s really nudging them or asking them or piquing their interest in those spaces and saying, hey man, it’s okay to, you know, learn about robots. It’s okay to geek out on space. <Laugh> So that’s been my goal and that’s kind of why I felt like this was the time in my career for me to kind of do this, be a face for STEM education and inspire kids to chase their goals and dreams. Over my career, I’ve had some really cool jobs, but I felt like I could keep doing cool jobs, but I’m like at the right age to still connect with those students and inspire them to chase their dreams. And that’s why I feel like right now, man, it’s just an opportune time to get these students involved in STEM.

Eric Cross (20:01):

We don’t get that. Oftentimes, when we’re solely doing the cool job or simply in the private sector, we don’t get those experiences as much as we do when we’re able to actually serve our community or students or take our passion, our skill set, and use it to serve another person. I hear that like, as you describe what you’re doing now is like, there’s something beyond just, you know, the using your skills and doing cool stuff, but there’s something I hear. That’s helping people and actually doing something you believe in that resonates deeply in you. And I can hear it as you talk about it.

Ricky Mason (20:30):

It’s been just amazing to actually chart out that journey. Like I said, and like tell kids, like, no man, I’m from right up the block from you, cause I mean, I’m building this back at home in my hometown. And that’s the reason why I kind of came back to kind of do that in my hometown, because I really want to, you know, relate to those students and inspire, you know, students here. Nobody thinks about technology coming out of Kentucky and that’s been a gift and a curse, I guess, with launching BrainSTEM in Kentucky. When I first started, I said, we’re a STEM education company, people are asking me what is STEM? So, that was where we started out with this in 2019, all the way to, you know, hey, in 2020, we’re gonna launch a metaverse. A metaverse! What is that? It’s been amazing to try to change the minds of not only Kentuckians about STEM and the importance of STEM, but the world that a metaverse company is coming outta Kentucky. <Laugh>

Eric Cross (21:31):

The work that you’re doing and, it exists beyond you and you probably know this, but as a Black science educator out here in San Diego … We don’t see people who look like all of us in this work often, and I saw that you had created something, a network group, network and chill. And that was one of the things, we had touched on community, but I thought that that was so huge because we need each other.

Ricky Mason (21:55):

I feel like that was the biggest thing for us in engineering. Like I showed up to my first internship and I’m like, I mean, my boss was cool. Everything else was cool, but I just didn’t feel like, hey, this is a community for me. And I almost changed my major because of that. But I’m glad that I didn’t, it’s huge to have more of us represented in, in these spaces.

Eric Cross (22:16):

And you know, in engineering, especially when we look at the disproportionate, you know, men versus women. Like it’s not, you know, it’s not just culture, but it’s, you know, gender, all of these different things. And if we’re gonna change it, I think a program like yours that gets exposure to all kids and then giving them choice. What advice would you give to students? Or what advice I should say, do you give to students now? When you see like your younger self in the different kind of K12 grades who are thinking about their futures or they’re thinking about STEM, what do you say to them?

Ricky Mason (22:46):

So my biggest advice, man is start now. Whatever that big thing is, that big dream is that you have, what is that now? You’re thinking about planes. You’re thinking about robots. You’re thinking about RC cars, whatever that is. Let’s start now. Let’s get your hands on an RC car. Let’s take it apart. Let’s start coding. Let’s start thinking about those problems now. But the biggest thing is, is getting kids used to solving tough problems. Typically, most students that have an affinity for, you know, STEM — and you just know that that kid’s gonna go into, STEM — they’re problem solvers. They’re typically looking and seeking those tough problems and seeking opportunities to learn. That’s where I feel like it’s parents’ jobs to provide that environment to foster, that zeal. A five-year-old kid, we started our STEM program with them at the beginning of this month.

Ricky Mason (23:39):

The first day I came in after I told him I was a rocket scientist. And now he’s like, well, I wanna be a pilot. I said, if you pay attention to this class, we’re gonna get you started on your way to being a pilot. And he knows all the parts of a rocket and he knows a rocket needs an oxidizer. And he knows the fuselage, the wings, the wing flaps. He knows all the different parts of the plane and how the forces, the drag, the lift, the weight, he knows how those are working cause we talked about those in class and he has so much more confidence and it came all to fruition when a kid said, wow, I thought it was gonna be really hard to be a robotics engineer. And I’m like, no, that’s not gonna be that hard. That is exactly what we set out to do when we started BrainSTEM, was to break down those barriers and those walls and build that confidence and say, look man, you can do this. It’s easy.

Eric Cross (24:26):

Society doesn’t help much either because one of our terms, right, if something’s really hard, or if something’s not hard, we say it’s not rocket science. That implies that rocket science is really hard and inaccessible. If kids would hear that it kind of instills in their brain, okay. It’s really hard, it’s probably too hard for me. To that point to parents, it sounds like a lot of just exposure, like giving students the opportunity to be able to be exposed to these things and letting them create wonder from it.

Ricky Mason (24:51):

Yeah, man. I often tell parents we’re gonna set kids up to go pro no matter what,

Eric Cross (24:56):

And those skill sets transfer, whether they decide to go into coding or they decide to manage a bank, you’re still gonna be dealing with people. You’re still gonna be problem-solving. You’re still gonna have to come up with creative solutions to things. It sounds like through a program like this, they learn those skills early.

Ricky Mason (25:12):

Yes. And I think that one thing that parents don’t think about … We talk about all the STEM and we want smart kids, but we need those soft skills also within STEM. So those competitions, getting them involved in those communities with STEM students is really huge in presenting their ideas because oftentimes, you know, our STEM guys, we’re in a lab working and that’s where we love and that’s where we wanna be because we haven’t, you know, been prepared to talk and present our ideas. So I think that’s a huge part of what we have to teach our STEM students. And we do that by providing that community and those opportunities for them to, you know, do that.

Eric Cross (25:47):

Thinking about where you are now, looking back on your K-12 education, were there any teachers that stood out to you or that inspired you as I even just say that, can you think of a particular teacher or one or two?

Ricky Mason (26:00):

When I think about my teachers, my teachers really taught me to solve those tough problems and those subjects that you don’t kinda like <laugh>, cause I was always a great student, but my teachers helped me to focus on those subjects that I didn’t so much, you know, enjoy. So I enjoyed math and science, but English social studies, like why do I have to be here? I had two teachers during my high school career that really supported me in that regard, and helping me to be the best student all aroundfrom like I said, STEM to English and social studies, and making me realize that I have to be a well-rounded student if I’m gonna be truly successful. As far as engineering, man, I would say one guy, my teacher, Nick Bazar up at John Hopkins. During my master’s there, I had a really cool project. I got to do data forensics on a real live murder case. <Laugh> That was really inspiring because I’m like, wow, this is real life where my coding skills are being used in a jury trial <laugh>. And so that was a really cool experience to partner with my professor to kind of do that. I mean, that was just mind blowing that I got to help with that and that, I mean, he was using his programming skills to help solve a murder case.

Eric Cross (27:22):

What’s the best way for people to connect with you and follow your journey? And if a teacher’s interested and they’re listening to this and they’re hearing, okay, this metaverse coding thing sounds awesome, I want to get involved, I wanna know more, where can people go? What steps should they take to be able to get connected to you and what you’re doing?

Ricky Mason (27:40):

Yeah. So you can check us out at brainSTEMu.com, that’s brainSTEM, the letter “u” dot com and on all social medias, we’re BrainSTEMu or BrainSTEM University. Teachers, right now, we are doing our free course for teachers. So sign up at brainstemu.com. You can sign up for your class to get into a free metaverse experience, just so you can kind of check it out and get your class into the metaverse and see how your students like the metaverse, how you like teaching in the metaverse and convert one of your 2D lessons from Google classroom into a metaverse classroom. For me, I’m Ricky Mason, 5 0 2 on all social media platforms. So you can just type that in Ricky Mason502 and get with me there.

Eric Cross (28:28):

Nice. Well Ricky, I wanna thank you for sharing your story and creating BrainSTEM. And then for, I know you’re a man of tremendous talents and skills and accomplishments, and you’re focusing all that on not only being back in your community, but also creating something for younger versions of you and opening up opportunities that they might not otherwise have, as you said, folks are like, what is STEM? And that is exactly where we need those seeds planted. So thank you for doing that.

Ricky Mason (28:55):

Oh man, this is awesome. I appreciate you, man for hosting this podcast and providing this platform and sharing the message of, you know, educators and people in the space.

Eric Cross (29:07):

Thanks so much for joining me and Ricky today. Make sure to support Science Connections by subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts. And you could hear more from Ricky in our Facebook group, Science Connections the community, where you can check out all the exclusive content. Until next time.

Juan Vivas (00:00):

But to me, based on my experience so far, I think the best way to put it: An engineer is a technical problem-solver.

Eric Cross (00:28):

Welcome to Science Connections. I’m your host, Eric Cross. My guest today is Juan Vivas. Juan is a supply chain engineer for SpaceX. His career in STEM has pivoted from chemical engineering to working on foods like Cinnamon Toast Crunch to his current role at SpaceX, where he’s responsible for his work on Starlink, a technology that uses low-orbit satellites to provide internet access across the world. In this episode, Juan shares his story of how he became an engineer and how a thoughtful teacher used robotics to inspire him. I hope you enjoy this great conversation with Juan Vivas. Juan, thanks for being here.

Juan Vivas (01:14):

Yeah, yeah, of course! Super-excited to be here.

Eric Cross (01:19):

Hey, and starting off, I kind of like to ask your origin story. We were talking earlier about Marvel, and your journey of one working for…what I consider the closest thing that we have to SHIELD in the Marvel stories is SpaceX. Like with my own students, we talk about SpaceX like it’s a fictional thing, and we watch the rocket launches together and we watch the recovery and it’s so cool.

Juan Vivas (01:45):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (01:46):

And so when I knew that we were gonna be able to talk to you, I was excited. Like, I felt like I was a kid.

Juan Vivas (01:51):

<Laugh>

Eric Cross (01:51):

So I’d love to hear your origin story of you ultimately landing at SpaceX. And begin wherever kind of seems most natural to you.

Juan Vivas (01:59):

Yeah, yeah, of course. You know, I wasn’t one of those kids at from a young age I said “Oh, I’m gonna be an engineer.” Right? “I want to go and build all these things.” Where I grew up, and the social circle that I had, a lot of people were like doctors or lawyers. Just figured, you know, I’ll go to med school and go down the same path that 90% of like everyone else was gonna take. But in high school, I actually got into robotics. And, kind of like I mentioned, I wanted to do med school, that is what I figured I would end up doing. And then I got into robotics in high school. And I think that was what really kind of like changed my perspective of what I wanted to do, because basically these competitions were just—it was full-on driven by students. So we designed, programmed, and manufactured, like, the entire robot itself. And so through that I ended up doing a summer engineering program at the University of Maryland, the summer before going into my senior year in high school. And there we worked on a competition with underwater robots. And so we spent the entire summer, kind of similar scenario, designing a robot, manufacturing it, programming it. And then in the end it was like a competition in the buoyancy tank with different teams. And, you know, I think one thing that was really neat about that experience is that I got to hear Dr. John C. Mathers, who is a Nobel Prize physicist, speak to us in a room with, like, only 10 high school students. And just hearing his experience of where he started and the accomplishment that he’s been able to do, down in the STEM path, was really neat. And that summer was my final decision that I’m “OK, I know I want to be an engineer.” What’s interesting is I ended up choosing chemical engineering, instead of mechanical, which a lot of people, you know, based on all the experience that led me up to be an engineer, they asked me why I didn’t choose mechanical engineering. And I think one of the reasons why I chose chemical engineering is it’s very process-based. So one thing needs to happen, and there’s different inputs to that one step, and that step has an end-to-end reaction to it, right? So certain things need to happen in step one in order for step two to occur. And however the inputs happen in step one, it’s gonna affect the rest of the process. Honestly, very different than what I thought it was really gonna be. But what’s neat about chemical engineering is that it’s one of the most versatile engineering majors that you can have. Chemical engineering, because you work with a lot of process bases. Everything has a process, right? Everything needs to start with step one, and with, you know, step 10, whatever. And it’s all about optimization and improvement along those processes. So you can really take chemical engineering principles and apply ’em to different areas of a career, which is essentially the experience that I had in college. I had three internships with Dow Chemical where I did environmental health and safety, production, and supply-chain improvement. I then did research and development with Clorox. And then I did manufacturing engineering with General Mills. So really different job roles, different aspects, but same methodology applied.

Eric Cross (05:36):

I feel like there’s so much that you just said, <laugh> and I was trying to always, “I wanna ask him about that!” And in there, what I heard was there was a real pivotable, pivot moment in your life. Was the club…or was it a club, the robotics program? Or was that a class?

Juan Vivas (05:53):

You know, it was actually…it was VEX Robotics, specifically.

Eric Cross (05:56):

It was VEX! OK. Yeah, yeah. Really popular. And they still have it; I think we actually have some downstairs. So it was a club, and not necessarily a formal environment, where you were able to build. And it’s both collaborative and competitive, right? Like, there’s both aspects.

Juan Vivas (06:11):

Yep. Yep.

Eric Cross (06:11):

And, and then you had access to one of the only two facilities in the country that have these…were they buoyancy tanks?

Juan Vivas (06:20):

Buoyancy tanks, yep.

Eric Cross (06:21):

And there’s this book, Malcolm Gladwell’s Outliers, and then another similar book called Balance. It talks about how some of these innovators, like Steve Jobs and, and Bill Gates, they had access to things that other people didn’t. So, like, Bill Gates, I think at the University of Washington, had a computer that, you know, no one else did. And Jobs had one at, like, Hewlett-Packard. So it gave you this awesome headstart, where you’re able to test things in a real-life environment that kind of transfers into real-world skills. And then a few internships, so like, internships and mentors. So you had these people in the industry or people who were front-runners that were able to pour into you and give you these opportunities. And so it’s really neat to see how a program that starts as a club, kind of a competitive thing that introduced you to it and hooked you, then led to unfolding all of these opportunities that ultimately led you up to being here. And there’s one part—in looking at your LinkedIn profile, there’s a couple of really cool things that stand out. There’s a lot of cool things, but there’s two that really stood out. So one, working at SpaceX, and we’ll talk more about that, but I wanna go to General Mills and Cinnamon Toast Crunch. Because Cinnamon Toast Crunch is amazing.

Juan Vivas (07:39):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (07:39):

And you were part of the supply chain for that. In my head, I’m thinking, OK, like, what is he like responsible for? Like, getting the cinnamon and sugar?

Juan Vivas (07:51):

<Laugh>

Eric Cross (07:51):

What was, what did your job entail, when you were running that?

Juan Vivas (07:55):

There, I didn’t even know what I was gonna be doing until my first day. It was just, whatever the business need is, that’s where you’re gonna be put. So this was actually a high-priority plan for General Mills. And the production line that made Cinnamon Toast Crunch was split up into processes. So you have, they call it the process-process side, which is like literally raw materials, like making the cereal from scratch, baking it, adding the sugar, and then sending it to be packaged. And then you have the packaging-process side. so I was then placed as a packaging process lead, for the packaging side of that production line. So I was accountable for two packaging lines that packed out Cinnamon Toast Crunch. And that is where—that was actually my first real, you know, call it “real job,” like graduated college, going straight into the industry. I was a process lead for the packaging side of Cinnamon Toast Crunch.

Eric Cross (08:54):

So you went from cereal to rockets, <laugh>, which which is an amazing trajectory to have.

Juan Vivas (09:03):

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Cross (09:04):

And when you kind of mentioned, back in your story about medical school, and, you know, it’s kinda like, what you see people doing, and you’re “OK, this is what I think I wanna do.” And then we have a perception in our mind about what a certain job’s gonna be like. And then reality hits. I think a lot of—when I ask my students, “What do you wanna do?” They think, like, “lawyer!” and when they think “lawyer!” they’re like, “I’m good at arguing!” Right? And until they find—until they talk to some lawyers and they find out like what that career can look like.

Juan Vivas (09:28):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (09:28):

You’re not just in the courtroom showing off your arguing skills. But, like, an engineer, when I talk to my students about what does it mean to be an engineer, often it’s very linear. It’s “I build bridges,” or, you know, maybe cars, but you’re a supply chain engineer. And, and that’s something that I think, now more than ever, it’s probably an incredibly critical role, especially considering that all of these supply constraints. Can you—what is a supply chain engineer? And what does it look like in your day-to-day? How is engineering rolled into that?

Juan Vivas (10:03):

Yeah, yeah. I think that’s an excellent question. I, too, once thought that engineering was just “I’m gonna be actually making something physical,” and like being super engineer-y about it. But, to me, based on my experience so far, I think the best way to put it: An engineer is a technical problem solver. As a supply chain engineer, specifically right now in my role at SpaceX…you know, as you can guess, the supply chain in the entire world is crazy. There’s no raw materials anywhere, and nothing can ever get on time. And so what I work on is I help our suppliers develop processes to meet the design criteria that we set up for like a specific part. As my job as a supply chain engineer, it’s “Can I take this design and make it manufacturable?” Right? “Can I go to any supplier and can they actually make this to the tolerance that the design engineer set them to be?” Nine out of 10 cases, the answer is no, essentially, is the best high-level way to put it.

Eric Cross (11:10):

When you’re solving these problems, is it this iterative process of going back and forth? Or is it just this aha-moment when you finally figure things out? ‘Cause I imagine they’re coming up with a design; you’re going back and saying, “Can this be manufactured?” or “Can it be done?” They’re saying no 90% of the time. And then are you the one responsible for kind of iterating on this, or changing it and then going back to them and telling them, asking them, until you get a yes? Is that—

Juan Vivas (11:33):

Yep. Yep, yep. Exactly. So we go through a process called Design for Manufacturing, DFMing. And where I essentially take, you know, the design engineer’s proposal, and then I have conversations with the suppliers, and then, that’s where the iteration begins. Where we go back and forth, back and forth, until we kind of meet in the middle to have something that can be manufacturable. Most of the times, in my experience, suppliers will always tell you no, just because they always want something that is manufactured really easily. And so you just gotta learn through experience. Like, when are they actually telling you something that’s a fact, versus when they’re just trying to you know, get out of a tolerance, or that “all right, all right, they mentioned that would just like make their jobs a little bit more difficult.”

Eric Cross (12:17):

So I’m hearing like there’s soft skills that are woven into the technical skills that you also need to be able to have.

Juan Vivas (12:23):

Oh, yes, absolutely. Yeah. I think, you know, as an engineer—and this is something, again, that I feel like you can only learn through experience—you’re gonna see that it’s not just you working to solve this one problem. Especially for a supply chain engineer. You’re talking with marketing; you’re talking with an industrial design team; you’re talking with logistics; you’re talking with procurement, materials management—just a whole set of people that don’t necessarily have technical background. Right? So sometimes, depending on the audience that I’m targeting, I’m always very, very peculiar on what is my target audience, right? How can I—how deep in my technical knowledge do I need to go? Because if I just, you know, talk straight Engineer, they either don’t care or they’re gonna be really confused about what I’m saying. So there is a stronghold of soft skills that definitely go into engineering, which I think are really important to communicate, you know, to, let’s say, students that are really interested in engineering. So you can be extremely smart and intelligent and really good at problem-solving, but if you don’t have those soft skills that you apply in the real world—’cause in the real world, you’re never only gonna be working with engineers, no matter like where you’re at—so having those soft skills to be able to manage with different backgrounds and different sort of people and different ways of thinking, it’s, I feel, really critical, for, for an engineer in the real world.

Eric Cross (13:50):

No, I think that’s a great point. It reminds me of teaching! And so many other professions where your ultimate goal is to really pour into this person in front of you and help develop them and create a sense of inquiry and wonder and personal growth and inspiration. But you’re also working within constraints and people and relationships. You know, you have your other teachers, you have parents, you have administrators, you have a district, you have communities, stakeholders. You have all of these different dynamics that you have to kind of navigate in order to ultimately help this child thrive. Versus just, like, being in the classroom: “OK, I just got <laugh>, the hundred or 200 students, just you and me. That’s it.” But that’s not the real world. And there’s this report that came out, I think Google ran it, Project Oxygen and Project Aristotle, and they asked the question, “What are the most effective traits of a good team and a manager?” And the top seven skills were all soft skills. So it is like exactly what you’re saying, where, yeah, it’s great that you have this technical aptitude, but if you’re not able to work with other people, problem-solve together, work with people of different backgrounds and perspectives, then you’re gonna run into some roadblocks. And that kind of dovetails, like, looking at things like if you looked at education from the perspective of an engineer. So you’re all about optimizing, right? Optimizing, working with what you got. When you look at education, are there any things that you would optimize to help improve the experience of students? Like, looking back, that you would fine-tune, that you think could provide better outcomes in the classroom?

Juan Vivas (15:28):

You know, I feel…I don’t know. Obviously I’m not a teacher. And I’m sure teachers just have so much stuff going on. But I think just like, finding…giving a chance to those students that you see a lot of potential in and really taking the time to mold them. You know, I did have a teacher who was able to mold me and give me that kind of one-on-one personal experience, right? I think honestly to me it just comes down to mentorship, and motivating students on what, you know, they’re passionate for. Like, putting them in front of engineers, right? Like finding engineers to come volunteer and explain to them. I genuinely believe it just takes one spark to really get a student on a trajectory where they can make an impact in the future. So to me, it comes down to, really, exposure. How much are you really exposing your students to…you know what, something I’ve learned, when I joined SpaceX, is that Elon doesn’t believe—well, you know, there there’s a lot of things that Elon believes and not believes in; there’s a whole different type of conversation!—but he doesn’t think that you can just take a curriculum, let’s say, and just apply it massively to everyone and expect like everyone to be it. That’s just naturally not how it works, right? Students learn at different paces; they have different sort of interests. This is actually why he created his own school for his kids in LA, called Ad Astra. You know, if you take that mentality, what that school is doing is that they’re working at the students’ pace and at the student’s interests, right? And I actually have a coworker who has his kids in that school. And I mean, these are one of the most brilliant kids I’ve ever known. Like, they are taking differential equations in the eighth grade. And I didn’t know what differential equations was until I was in college already and they told me, “This is a class you have to take.” <Laugh>. But it’s finding that crossway where, where is the curiosity of the student? What are they really interested in? and exposing them to that.

Eric Cross (17:51):

Yeah. And what I’m hearing of that is, in teacher-speak, a lot of personalized learning. Like you were talking about…is it Ad Astra?

Juan Vivas (17:59):

Ad Astra? Yep.

Eric Cross (18:01):

Ad Astra. You know, every student learns in their own way and they develop knowledge in their own way. And being able to personalize learning according to the students’ abilities and needs, and then accelerate or slow down, really produces some amazing effects. I know this is something that we as teachers try to do with the classroom. Scaling it is the challenge. But it’s great because even with people who are in charge of policy or people who have decision-making ability, hearing people from the top down saying, “Hey, look, this is what worked for me. This is how I was able to become successful. I had a teacher that was able to be a mentor to me because they knew me, they had a relationship with me, they were able to tap into my passions and use those passions to drive me to do or put me in programs that I might not have known about because they, they knew who I was.” And it’s not one-size-fits-all for everyone. So having—maybe it’s curriculum or learning experiences that are kind of modular, where students are able to maybe try on different things and get that exposure, I’m a big, big believer, like you are, in mentorship. That was a huge, huge thing in my life. Having mentors. It’s the reason why I became a science teacher. In seventh grade, I had a mentor who had us doing college-level science, you know, at UC San Diego. And it completely changed the trajectory of my life, in a direction that I wouldn’t have had without him. So I think that’s great. And it’s something that we as teachers would appreciate hearing. Going back to what you said…earlier you said your wife is a supply chain engineer as well. And so that means that there’s two people who are process-minded in the household. And this is kind of a lighter question, but I gotta wonder, do you have the most optimized flow for grocery shopping? <Laugh> Because…

Juan Vivas (19:49):

Yeah, I think we don’t spend more than like 20 minutes at a grocery store. Mind you, we only shop at Trader Joe’s and we have a very specific list before going in. And if you ever shop at Trader Joe’s, you just know where everything is ’cause it’s always there and it’s small, right? But yeah, like we’re, we’re in and out in like 15, 20 minutes. It’s great.

Eric Cross (20:11):

I love it. I love it. I feel like I’m that way by design. I go in with a purpose and this is exactly what I want. I know where the cookie butter is, <laugh>, I know where my coffee is, and then, OK, I’m in and out. Apple Pay or whatever I’m using. And then we’re good to go. Do you think…so as someone listening to this or some people even just becoming aware of supply chain engineering, what advice would you give someone that’s interested in pursuing this career path? If you maybe reverse-engineered your process, knowing what you know now, you were gonna give advice, you were that mentor, what are just some kind of tips or ideas or thoughts or trajectories that you’d think that they should aim for? I’m assuming like robotics….

Juan Vivas (20:56):

Yeah. You know, I think I would say definitely finding some sort of program that exposes you to a lot of things that you won’t be exposed to, like on a day-to-day basis, or something that you just can’t be exposed to naturally at school. And mentorship, honestly. I was born in Colombia and my parents were both—they’re still both professionals, but they were both professionals in Colombia. And when we moved to this country, this was like December of 1999. My parents started from scratch, and so they didn’t really grow up in the States, right? So when it was my time to go to college and do all of this stuff, it was just like me on my own figuring this stuff out. And, you know, they definitely made some mistakes when it came to college applications and whatnot. But once I was in college, I knew that the best way for my success was gonna be through mentorship. And that’s when I joined the, Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers, which is a nationwide organization. And each college, well, most college campuses, have their own chapter. In joining that, I was exposed to resume workshops, mock interviews—basically how do you even talk to a recruiter? Which is so critical, right? And personally that that organization was really what molded my actual professional career.

Eric Cross (22:19):

There’s this theme that I’m hearing, kind of weaving through this. And in addition to—as we’re talking about STEM and technical skills, in addition to that, there’s this thread that I’m receiving of…being able to form relationships with other people, for our students, is an important skill to teach and should be taught explicitly. Which isn’t…it’s not really a curriculum, right? Like, you don’t get tested on your ability to….conflict resolution or how to write an email or how to develop a relationship. And then the other part in I think what you just said is the aspect of community. Through this organization, you learned kind of some of these hidden rules, maybe I would call it.

Juan Vivas (23:04):

Yep.

Eric Cross (23:04):

It’s not that you didn’t have the…you had the aptitude. You had the drive. But there were these kind of hidden rules, and from moving to the US, you needed a community to be able to show you, so that you can kind of go through the proper steps.

Juan Vivas (23:16):

Exactly.

Eric Cross (23:17):

And so that created a lot of value for you.

Juan Vivas (23:19):

Yep.

Eric Cross (23:20):

Well, the last question that I have is, is just kind of a wondering. You have this awesome story, and the story continues to unfold. I gotta say, <laugh> I’m gonna be following your LinkedIn profile, because I think you just have kind of the coolest trajectory of going from, you know, General Mills, working in chemical engineering, and then ultimately it’s SpaceX. And every time I see the rocket taking off and landing, I’m gonna be thinking, thinking about you. So cool!

Juan Vivas (23:47):

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Cross (23:49):

And personally, I have a hope that one day, one of my students will be at a company, you know, like SpaceX or Tesla or wherever, and one day I get to interview them and talk to them and see what they say. But the last question I want to ask is, is there, is there a teacher who inspired you, or a memorable experience that you have that made an impact on you?

Juan Vivas (24:16):

Yeah, yeah, of course. It was kind of you know, middle school going into high school. The way my school worked, everything was divided from pre-kindergarten, whatever, first to sixth grade, and then seventh grade to 12th grade. So I had a high school science teacher, Ms. Brown, Ms. Velda Brown, who, came from a small little island town on the east coast of Canada. Somehow landed, in the high school that I went to, to teach science. Going back to the beginning of the story where I mentioned that I figured whatever, I’ll go to med school. I played soccer, basketball, and, you know, I said, “I’ll figure it out once I graduate.” It might have been like life science in the eighth grade or something like that. But then she went on to teach me chemistry and physics as well. And when I was in the 10th grade, she approached me and she asked me if I wanted to join the robotics club. And I remember saying robotics? I don’t know. You know, naturally, in school, it’s different sorts of crowds: people that play sports and people that are like in like STEM clubs or whatever. And I was, “Ah, I don’t know; I don’t know how I feel about robotics; not really my thing….” But somehow she convinced me to join robotics. It’s me, coming into this group of kids that already knew each other, and they were all working on robotics. And I’m, “Yeah, I mean, I guess I’m just here to try this thing out.” It was a thing where we met every single Saturday at like seven in the morning. And there were times where I literally had to choose, “Do I go to like a soccer game or do I go to you help my team with robotics?” And I completely loved it. Like, I fell in love with the aspect of building something from scratch, and just making it operative. And she ended up just being a huge mentor for me in high school, actually. With her, with the help of her, I ended up opening the robotics club at my school. And before I left, we opened it up to middle schoolers. And then, you know, later, years later down the road when I was in college, I found out that it was now a whole-school thing. So there was an elementary robotics club at the school, the middle school one, and then the high school one were still a thing like years after I left. And that was like just so amazing to hear. But yeah, it was Ms. Velda Brown, my high school science teacher, that really took her time to mold me and get me into robotics, and really mentor me. And honestly, I’m sure you as teachers, you guys probably hear about it a lot, but you can have a lot of power in shaping a kid by just telling—believing in them, right? She believed in me so much that I would go on to be a successful engineer. And I’m. “OK, yeah, yeah, you’re just saying it.” But she spoke life into her students up to this day. I still speak about it with my wife, and when I’m in conversations about this, that if it wasn’t for my high school science teacher, I would not—well, no, I would probably not be an engineer right now.

Eric Cross (27:38):

Wow. Shout out to Ms. Velda Brown <laugh>. Would you say she spoke…I think one thing that just resonated with me is when you said she “spoke life” into you.

Juan Vivas (27:46):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (27:46):

That was really powerful. And I think we as teachers have that power and we don’t realize it. Because, you know, we get so we’re so familiar and living day-to-day, but we do have the power of life, speaking life, into our young people. And, yeah, that was—

Juan Vivas (28:03):

Absolutely, yeah. You know, I think obviously people grew up with different backgrounds, different communities, life situations, right? So imagine having like a student that is similar in that environment and then they just hear someone at their school, like, “Hey, you’re really good at this. why don’t you consider doing this?” And that’s when I feel teachers have that power. Where like they don’t necessarily know the background, but they can make that opportunity, or make that decision in the moment, to really shape a student’s life.

Eric Cross (28:37):

And we need to hear that. And I think, I hope that other teachers listening to this will be reminded that many times we don’t get to reap the harvest. We don’t get to see the <laugh> Juan Vivases at SpaceX. They just kind of go, and they disappear, and we hope for the best, and we get a new group. But every once in a while they come back, and we get to see what our watering or seed-planting was able to produce. And so, just know that you sharing your story for educators, and for definitely Ms. Brown, makes a huge difference and is a huge encouragement. So.

Juan Vivas (29:11):

You know, I think we touched on earlier, you know, how do I end up going from cereal to rockets, right? And I think it ties along with what I mentioned earlier of just taking—as an engineer, you’re really a critical problem solver, right? And you think that methodology. And if you find a way, you can apply it to different sectors. When I was doing a lot of like the packaging process stuff at General Mills, being a lead on a high-volume manufacturing line, what I do for SpaceX specifically, right now, I’m actually on the Starlink project. So if you’re up to date with Starlink, it’s, it’s essentially high reliable, fast internet that we’re providing to areas where usually people don’t have access to internet, right? Or maybe they do, but it’s extremely expensive. Because to an internet provider company, the benefit is not there, if they extend an entire internet fiber line out to their place because it’s only directed to them, right? So that’s, that’s essentially what Starlink is trying to solve. And this is the first time that SpaceX is facing a consumer packaging scenario. Before it was just rockets. And now they’re selling a product to consumers. They had never done that before, especially in a high-volume manufacturing setting. And so I am the supplier development engineer for all the consumer-facing packaging for the Starlink product itself. And that’s essentially how all those thoughts connected, where I had this experience coming from General Mills and packaging high-volume manufacturing. And then when Starlink started, they’re all, “Right, well, who knows anything about packaging?” Right? “We know so much about rockets, we need someone with this technical background.” And that’s essentially how I bridge over to SpaceX.

Eric Cross (31:11):

And so while you’re working at SpaceX, you’re working on Starlink, which I know you mentioned that—you said that it’s providing internet globally, which in and of itself, we—especially those of us that live in major cities—we kind of take for granted. Internet is like a utility. But we don’t maybe realize that in many parts of the world, internet is not reliable or even accessible.

Juan Vivas (31:33):

Right. Right.

Eric Cross (31:34):

I see every once in a while, I think, the StarlinK satellites sometimes are visible?

Juan Vivas (31:38):

Yep.

Eric Cross (31:39):

Low orbit?

Juan Vivas (31:39):

Yeah. Yeah. You can go—they’ll kind of be like a little train of bright stars that move along together. Yep.

Eric Cross (31:46):

And that must—that must feel…I mean, we all have jobs and we’re all doing different things, but you’re working on a project and you’re engineering something that actually can provide a lot of opportunities or close a gap in some parts of the world where they don’t have access to internet. They’re gonna be able to have access and be connected all over. I dunno, the word would be “existential.” Existential value. Like, what you’re doing is actually providing a service for people. Humanity. Like, addressing a critical need in many, many places around the world.

Juan Vivas (32:26):

Yeah. We’ve had stories where we have sent Starlink kids to a small school in a village in rural Chile, right in South America. And for the first time ever, they’ve had internet. We have supported disaster relief in Europe. I think this past summer, Europe had really bad floods. We sent Starlink kits out there. You know, the vision of working at an Elon Musk company and SpaceX and Starlink—this is all stuff that is being done for the first time in history. We have never, ever done anything like this before until now. And to be able to provide those that don’t have the access to—to your point, it’s kind of wild, right? Like we, we just take it for granted. “Oh yeah, I just have internet. Let me log on.” There are people on Earth right now that have never been on the internet. Or don’t even know what the internet is. And that’s essentially the, the gap that Startlink is starting to close.

Eric Cross (33:26):

Yeah. We think about that while my students are doing TikTok dances. <Laugh> And there are people who, you know, never, never been connected. And, it kind of makes me more like, just inside, if I can ask: What’s it like working at SpaceX? I showed my students what it’s like working at some of the Silicon Valley companies. ‘Cause just to show them there’s slides and food and, you know, they kind developed this ecosystem inside so that it’s really kind of homey to kind of keep you there, you know. When you’re working and there’s bikes and things like that. And that’s a very Silicon Valley type of thing. But, you know, in listening to you talk about SpaceX and Elon, you know, you’re with a really visionary kind of company, and when I hear you talk about it, there’s I can hear this passion, this, “we’re doing something.” Is that culture, like, pervasive everywhere? Are you around folks that kind of are on that same wavelength? Because I definitely get it from you as you talk about what you do.

Juan Vivas (34:28):

Yeah, yeah. Definitely. I think, as an engineer, you know, going to SpaceX and working at SpaceX, it’s essentially—personally, I believe right now in the US it’s like the mecca of engineering, right? Like, it is where engineering in this most, you know, shape and manner, it’s being applied. I think what’s really interesting is that the way that Elon looks at it is just iterate, and iterate fast, right? Like, fail and fail fast. I think as an engineer, you always want to have things perfect, right? And so you spend a lot of time in making a decision or investigating something or whatever. And working at SpaceX is the complete opposite. It’s just you know, “Assume, state your assumptions—like, what are you assuming right now? What are the risk at it? And just make a decision and then see what the result is.” You know, so it’s an environment where you learn, really quick.

Eric Cross (35:28):

You said something that I think was powerful and I hope, I think <laugh>, this is definitely, I’m gonna get a clip of this <laugh> of you saying it. Because it speaks directly to, I think, what a lot of students struggle with in the classroom, is there’s this competition or feeling that you always need to be right. And you need to be right the first try, on the first time. And a lot of times it’s because students will compare themselves to each other, or there’s a tremendous amount of pressure to be successful. But you said, “Fail and fail fast, iterate, state your assumptions.” And it sounds like this critical part of being an engineer or in what you do, like there’s no room for ego or attaching your identity or your sense of value or worth or ability to whether you’re able to solve a problem in the first try.

Juan Vivas (36:13):

Yep.

Eric Cross (36:14):

Like, you have to be OK with the cycle, is kind of what I’m hearing from you. Is that, is that right?

Juan Vivas (36:19):

Yep. Exactly. It only took six months to develop the product from scratch and launch it to the public, which is insane. Nowhere in the world will any company ever iterate that fast and come up with a brand-new project. But it’s because of that mentality—like you’re saying, it’s not about like just trying to make it perfect and have all this information. And I think Elon has learned this personally, you know, through Tesla and the beginning of SpaceX. It’s, “I can wait to have all this information, and most likely I’m still gonna be wrong after I make the decision.” So it’s, “Might as well take the risk, do the decision, and then just see where you learn from it, right?” And then you keep applying that, applying that. So it’s like you iterate, iterate, iterate, iterate until you get what you want.

Eric Cross (37:00):

I think this is even, like, great advice. I’m taking this personally because I get paralysis by analysis <laugh>.

Juan Vivas (37:06):

Yep.

Eric Cross (37:07):

You know, I’ll research something to death but then not actually execute. Like, I need to make a decision and do it and then course-correct along the way. Somebody once told me it’s a lot easier to turn a moving car than it is a car that’s sitting still. And so as you’re kind of flowing, you’re just making these adjustments along the way until you end up on the path that you want to be. So I think that there’s so many gems in the things that you’re saying right now. What I’m thinking through the lens of my seventh graders that want to work in any STEM field—I mean, really, any field in general, but especially engineering, especially the STEM fields—knowing that, pick it, make a decision, move forward, and then course-correct along the way. That’s what science looks like in the real world.

Juan Vivas (37:49):

Yep. Exactly. Yep. And definitely most important—and I feel like this is sometimes where, not necessarily education in general, but it’s just, we want students to, “OK, you need to get it right the perfect time, right?” But it’s like, every student is gonna think differently. A student is gonna take a different assumption based on their background and experiences. And I mean, you know, we can go a lot deeper in that, but the way a student is shaped, they’re gonna take certain assumptions. So that’s where it gets interesting. OK, why are you assuming that? Where’s your thought process in this?

Eric Cross (38:25):

And we all come from different backgrounds and mindsets and filters and biases that cause us to look at something a certain way. And it’s not just like calling it out, just going, “Hey look, this is what it is.” Like autopsy without blame, this is what I’m working with. Let’s discuss it openly. Right? And if we started that process earlier, you know, younger, in classrooms, we can de-stigmatize the right answer being the best answer more, as opposed to focusing on process as opposed to outcome. And then you kinda get used to wanting to go through the process. I look at it like video games and I talk to my students. I say, “You know, you don’t pick up a video game that’s brand-new and then play it and then you die once and you’re ‘Ah, I’m never gonna play this game again.’ You know, it just doesn’t work that way. You’re going through this iterative process, and no matter what you play, you’re trying things differently. You’re data collecting. And then you’re making new decisions based on the data that you collected.” And for some of my kids, they’ll just raise their hands, say, “No, I just get mad and throw the controller across the room.” <Laugh> But I go, “Yeah, and then you’ll try it again.”

Juan Vivas (39:33):

The best way to know how not to do something is to fail. And so you already…I mean, what is that famous quote? I think that’s why Thomas Edison’s, “Oh, I, did not fail 99 times. Right? I only found 99 times…” I mean, that is that is true. And I feel like at work in a SpaceX, that is something that probably the core of it comes from there. It’s you know, any failure, quote unquote, that you may take it as a failure, it’s really not. You’re just “OK, we, we tried that. It didn’t work. Like what are we gonna do next?” So it’s just like taking that learning and like moving off with it quickly.

Eric Cross (40:09):

I heard a couple of teachers say, “Things fail: First Attempt In Learning: F A I L.” And then another teacher, one of my mentor teachers, she said, “There’s no such thing as failure, just data, in science.”

Juan Vivas (40:20):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Exactly. Yep.

Eric Cross (40:23):

And so I’ve always taken that to heart. And I share that with my own students, just, “A ‘no,’ a lot of times, will tell you more information than a ‘yes.’” ‘Cause if something works in the first try, you may not exactly know why it worked. It just did.

Juan Vivas (40:34):

Yeah. Yep.

Eric Cross (40:37):

So yeah. Well, I went on your time, brother. Dude. <laugh>. The time flew. It was…

Juan Vivas (40:46):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (40:47):

There were so many things I was trying to write out as you were talking, that I just felt like, “This guy is sharing so many gems!” But yeah, I want to thank you for taking time outta your day and for sharing that information for your passion for what you do. And, I don’t know, I think that students and teachers that listen to this will get an insight from a perspective that really matters. ‘Cause ultimately we’re, we’re trying to really prepare our students for real life. Maybe I’ll email you privately if I order a Tesla, if you can move me higher up the Cybertruck line. <laugh>

Juan Vivas (41:22):

Yeah. No promises.

Eric Cross (41:24):

<laugh>

Juan Vivas (41:25):

Yeah. No, I appreciate you guys having me, having me here, and be able to speak on my experience. And hopefully it sparks a couple, one, even if it’s just one teacher that will spark another student, that is already success there. So.

Eric Cross (41:42):

Well I know, I know what you said resonates with me and it fills my cup. And I’m excited. So I’m already thinking of some ideas of things that I can do, just because of this conversation, and I know other people will as well. And, again, this is Juan Vivas, who’s a supply development engineer at SpaceX. He’s worked at some amazing places. And someone who believes deeply in not only the power of the technical skills, but the heart skills, and how community makes a huge impact in his life. It made a huge impact in him ultimately becoming a scientist, and now working on a project at SpaceX, Starlink, that is going to provide access to the world, to the web. And that’ll ultimately help us solve more problems and innovate and create some solutions that will benefit everybody. Thank you, sir. Appreciate you.

Juan Vivas (42:30):

Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much, Eric. Appreciate it.